Gay Marriage Revisited

By Independent
Published/Last Modified on Monday, December 1, 2008 5:29 AM CST

            Much as been written and spoken lately about the passage of Proposition 8 in California. This proposition denies the right of same sex couples to legally marry. This right to marry was initially given on May 15, 2008 when the California Supreme Court overturned the state’s ban on same sex marriage on the basis that the ban violated the state’s constitution. In the November elections, Proposition 8 was passed by a majority vote, essentially reversing the May court decision. Whether this new ban is constitutional has yet to be seen.

            Many people believe that just because a majority of people in a state vote a law into existence, such as a ban on same sex marriage, this automatically makes the law right, and a court should not have the power to overturn the will of the people. On the contrary, the U. S. Constitution, and Bill of Rights, are specifically designed to protect the rights of the minority from the power (and tyranny) of the majority. Think about it, what if the majority of the people in a state voted to (this is just an example) ban all left handed people from driving a car, because they thought it was dangerous and being left handed was “just not natural”. They also considered being left handed a “choice” and therefore all one had to do to get the right to drive back was to start being right handed. Now, the Constitution does not specifically give everyone the right to drive a car, however, this majority vote would clearly be overthrown by a court as being against the spirit of the Constitution and therefore unconstitutional. All laws passed by the people, a city council, state legislature, or even Congress must be held up to the standard of the Constitution, it is the ultimate law of the land. It is the specific job of the courts to interpret these laws and decide if they are constitutional or not.

            Many also argue that if gay couples are allowed to marry, it would open the door for people to marry dogs, cars, or even for pedophiles to marry children. This is ridiculous for one reason alone. Marriage is a legal contract, and animals, inanimate objects, and children are not able to enter into a legal contract. On the other hand, two consenting adults of the same sex are.

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            Others also argue that denying same sex couples the right to marry takes only the word “marriage” away from them, since they can obtain a civil union in a few states like Vermont. Civil unions, while granting some marriage-like rights, are not marriages. A few examples include, when you get married in any state, all other states are required to recognize the marriage, which is not true with civil unions. Civil unions are not recognized by the Federal government, so these couples cannot file a joint tax return. In addition, the U.S. General Accounting Office compiled 1,049 rights granted by marriage, including: joint parenting, joint adoption, status as next of kin for hospital visits and medical decisions, joint insurance policies, divorce protections, inheritance automatically in the absence of a will, rights to a spouses pension plan, social security, Medicare, etc. Some of these are granted by civil unions, but many are not, and only in the state in which the union was granted. Consider this, if your spouse is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, "He's my husband," you will immediately be taken to your spouse's side.

            Many also give religious reasons to ban same sex marriage. While everyone is entitled to their individual freedom of religion, religious beliefs alone, no matter how strong you feel about them, are not valid reasons that can stand up in a court of law. You simply cannot force your particular religion’s beliefs and rules on everyone else, who may not believe the same. Now, it’s true that there are laws against killing and stealing, which are also banned by the 10 Commandments, however these laws exist not because of their existence in the Bible, but because they infringe upon the rights of others. Consider this, the Bible, in Leviticus, also states that eating shellfish (shrimp) is an abomination (10:11). Shall we pass a law banning the consumption of shrimp, and if so, who is going to explain it to the people of Delcambre? Leviticus also prohibits cutting the hair on the sides of your head or your beard (19:27) as well as prohibiting the eating of pork (11:7).

The Bible gives many prohibitions, rules, and regulations, however, in Matthew 7:12 Jesus gives us what is commonly referred to as the Golden Rule. He said, “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets”. Are we following this rule when we choose to reserve the right of marriage for ourselves and not to those who we believe to be different from us? Believe as you will, but this is the Jesus I choose to believe in. I believe Jesus is Love. Love is ALWAYS good. I do not believe that Jesus would condemn anyone for loving someone else, regardless of their sex. Others would disagree, but that is my Jesus. I could be wrong, but I believe it better to err on the side of love. Either way, each person’s religious beliefs, and what God considers a “sin” should be strictly between that person and God. We should leave our civil laws out of it.

            Lastly, let us consider the fact that we are taking away or restricting the rights of two consenting adult citizens of the United States. We are setting a dangerous precedent here. While many don’t have a problem with restricting the rights of gays, we are setting ourselves up for the same to happen to us one day. Once you open the door to taking away or restricting the rights of certain citizens, simply because they seem different to you, where does that end? While these examples may sound silly now, what would stop certain rights from being taken away from left-handed people, or people who choose not to eat meat, or people who do not make the sign of the cross when they pass a church, or for that matter, those who DO make the sign of the cross? Once we begin taking away the rights of others, we open ourselves up to having rights taken away from us one day. I believe Thomas Paine, U.S. patriot and author of Common Sense, which helped spark the start of the American Revolution, said it best when he said, “He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself”. You may think I am completely wrong here, and that is your right to believe so and to say so. That right guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and the blood of soldiers who have defended it, throughout history, including the thousands of gays currently defending OUR rights in the U.S. armed forces today. I thank them, and all veterans, for the right to print this letter. Thank you.

 

Comments

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Jan 5, 2009 3:06 PM:

    " The study states that." the factors that might mediate the relationship between childhood sexual abuse and sexual orientation remain to be determined.
    (More study needed)"They also concluded that mental health professionals who work with Gay,Lesbians,and bi-sexuals to be aware that they have a heightened risk of psychological, physical, and sexual victimization.
    So the jury is still out conclusively, but there does seem to be a higher prevalence of childhood abuse among homosexuals and bisexuals.In addition this is not to say that all bisexuals & homosexuals are victims of abuse,some are indeed born that way. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Jan 5, 2009 3:04 PM:

    " P.L. there was a study published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology Copyright 2005 by the American Psychological Association
    2005." Victimization Over the Life Span: A Comparison of Lesbian,Gay,
    Bisexual,&Heterosexual Siblings"
    The purpose of this study was to investigate the prevalence of self-reported psychological,physical, and sexual abuse in childhood and adulthood in a large,national sample of lesbians, gay men, and bisexual women and men.The study concluded that heterosexual men(12.8%) reported a relatively lower rate of childhood sexual abuse than bisexual men(44.1%)&gay men (31.8%).The percentages of women of all sexual orientations were comprable to that of bisexual & homosexual-males. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Jan 5, 2009 12:13 PM:

    " Currently there are no genetic markers that can conclusively point to a fetus being homosexual or heterosexual. There is however scientific evidence discovered by D.F.Swaab who conducted an experiment in 1990.He discovered that there is a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain.Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain.The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function.In the homosexual brains examined,they were found to be twice the size of heterosexuals.(bornthatway) "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Jan 5, 2009 11:24 AM:

    " P.L. I did not intend for my statement concerning epilepsy to seem as though I believe that to be true.My intent was to point out that christians throughout history have held many beliefs that science has and will continue to debunk.Examples:The early church taught that the world was flat,those who disagreed were excommunicated, not to mention tortured ,tried and sent to jail and some were even murdered for disagreeing with the official church'standard.People who suffered from seizures were thought by early christians to be possesed by demons because scripture supported this.Left-handed people were also considered to be-evil. "

    P.L. wrote on Jan 3, 2009 6:03 PM:

    " To Kimbro: As a teen, I met 2 brothers, the older one was bisexual and the younger one was strictly gay. They had both been molested by their uncle as children. Could their sexual orientations somehow have been unnaturally influenced by their first sexual experiences (sexual abuse)? What if they weren't "born gay"? If so, maybe their lives could have been much simpler and possibly happier. The older one was in a gay relationship. The younger one became a drug addict, was very promiscious, and contracted HIV. Any scientific research pertaining to this? "

    P.L. wrote on Jan 3, 2009 8:58 AM:

    " To Kimbro: You quoted some scientific research into homosexuality which points to a "born that way" explanation. If scientists could pinpoint enough of the genetic markers, pro-abortionists might push to invent a type genetic "gay" test for fetuses so parents could abort them before being born if they didn't want a gay child. I believe pro-lifers would push to protect the lives of the unborn supposedly "gay" fetuses.
    P.S. Even for arguments sake with "DaBerry", I don't see how you could compare a proven medical disorder (epilepsy) to demonic possession. "

    separker02 wrote on Jan 2, 2009 5:01 PM:

    " I've read a good number of these posts, and the sticking point always comes down to religion. As a minister, I see a very clear difference between what I do as a religious functionary and what the state offers to its citizens. I can choose to do a wedding ceremony - or not - based on the tenets of my particular denomination/faith and that won't change regardless of any legal descriptions. So, if we really believe in the separation of church and state, the state should treat all couples equally regardless of religious beliefs. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Jan 2, 2009 9:17 AM:

    " Believer,again we disagree concerning victims of abuse.There are many studies that have been done that prove this. Statistically speaking lesbians, gay men, and bisexual women and men
    reported higher levels of psychological, physical, and sexual violence
    in both childhood and adulthood. A particularly dramatic difference emerged when overall lifetime victimization was compared across sexual orientation.In other words, the number of abused homosexuals and bisexuals are greater than that of heterosexuals.I am far from confused.Nor am I perverting scripture. I think that Matt:19:12 proves Jesus to be all knowing & on a scientific level way ahead of his time. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 30, 2008 6:44 PM:

    " Kimbro aka Kim, "embraced?" I hardly think so. He "forgave them" maybe after they repented of their sins. Victims of abuse should not be placed in this category. Those willngly taking any vows are of free will to do so. And to, with Hermaphrodites it is a "split" decision. (lol).....They should go with what their outer image project, usually female. Kimbro, you tend to want to pervert your interpretation of the Word as long as it supports your opinion. I'm signing off on this one, you are confused. I think others would agree with me. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 30, 2008 8:52 AM:

    " I also believe Jesus acknowledges homosexuals as well as hermaphrodites as being born that way in Matt 19:12"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb(born-as homosexual-or-hermaphrodite)and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: (victims of sexual-abuse-or-sexually mutilated) and there are eunuchs,who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.(Clergy who take vow of chastity or never marry,or-nuns)He that can take,let him take it.Like it or not in traditional settings,,Jesus was"The Liberal”of his day.He showed this by his challenging the religious leaders and showing them for who they really were. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 30, 2008 8:50 AM:

    " Believer, we do agree on a few things. however, I do respectfully disagree with some of your view points. Jesus is the embodiment of God's love, and I firmly believe that Christ would show the same love and acceptance to those in the gay community. He embraced prostitutes, adulterers,and even tax collectors. He epitomizes tolerance. Though he may not march, he would neither shun,nor ostracize them. Jesus came to save people, not drive them away. Unfortunately, many Christians seem intent to drive away some of the very people he came to save. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:20 PM:

    " To Independent, We love and support our troops for their bravery and willingness to die for our rights. You seem to give more reverence or respect to the soldiers that died defending the Constitution than to Christ who died defending God's law...O.K.....! "

    Entertained wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:08 PM:

    " Well if all these other countries accept gay lifestyles, this gives the Homosexuals plenty of choices to re-locate. Go, you have my blessings. But "Kim " just cause one person jumps in the lake ,doesn't make it right or that everyone should follow. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:06 AM:

    " The damage I have done? Yes…Yes I am happy about the damage I have done to those that would force their religious beliefs on everyone else in the form of laws, to those that would erode the basic freedoms given to us and maintained by the blood of soldiers, to those that believe they are “more righteous” than others and therefore deserve more legal rights than them, to those who want the Constitution to protect their freedoms, but would like to take those same freedoms away from others because they see them as “sinners”. (Continued) "

    Believer wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:37 PM:

    " Kimbro aka Kim, that is exactly my point. You are validating the point that I was trying to make on Dec. 20, that there are 1,000's of Christian faith groups who will interpret things the way they want to if it fits their needs whether right or wrong. That is called religious pluralism. The fact is there is but One Christ and I doubt that you would see him marching or promoting at any gay rights rallies. Even in our judicial system, ignorance of the law is not a defense. So, deviation of God's law is not a defense either. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 23, 2008 4:47 PM:

    " Da Berry-we agree on accepting& respecting gays.The homosexual life is not for me either,as I was born a heterosexual.No line has been crossed by my statement concerning natural. Look at this logically.Who on earth would choose to live such a hard/criticized life of someone that is gay?So much pain surrounds it.New scientific research is showing the connection between homosexual occurrences as being influenced during gestation by the mothers hormone levels.(rx hormones in the water supply may also be causal)
    In fact there is direct evidence that with each consecutive pregnancy, homosexuality becomes more prevalent(akin to Rh incompatibility)There is no harm-when-the-truth-is-told.So-do-you-also-believe-epilepsy-to-be-caused-by-demonic-possesion? "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 23, 2008 4:26 PM:

    " Believer cont-
    To clarify the different Bible versions: We as christians disagree on some/many points. Given the fact that there are approximately 1,000 Christian faith groups in the U.S. and Canada alone,disagreements on biblical interpretation are bound to occur. I respect your opinion as a christian. Please respect the fact that not all christians will agree with you. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 23, 2008 4:25 PM:

    " Believer,I agree with you that no version of the Bible says its okay for Gays to marry,I am not confused about that.I believe certain texts that many believe to be only about homosexuals are about much more than that(thus-my-opinion-on-gay-marriage)I also respectfully disagree with your view concerning divorce,as there are many different texts that concern this area. (Matthew 5:32,Luke 16:18,Mark 10:11-12,Cor 7:10-11)We must however remember that not every American is a Christian. As Americans we must protect everyones civil rights, in order to protect & preserve our own.I am saddened that many do not see or realize the true-big-picture. "

    Da Berry wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:52 AM:

    " I accept gays as being human and susceptible just as any other. I do not and will never accept the act or behavior of. Your statement Kim of crossing the line is out of order. It is not us that cross the natural boundary but they that do. It is not a natural act to be gay, it is not born to them but a spirit that has possessed them, or oppressed them. You and Independent have twisted the truth till is unrecognizable. I hope you're happy with yourselves and the damage you've caused. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:46 AM:

    " To Kimbro aka Kim, in any version or translation of any bible of any type...you will not find an example or hint where gay marraige is permitted. It's clear that people will often dig deep when trying to prove a point. Consider that over- simplifying or over- educating one's self can often lead to that person becoming confused. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 6:24 PM:

    " -continued-
    In the past it was true that the religions you listed were did not accept homosexuals.However in todays societies, many of these different religions are now accepting of them.(note, I said some not all) Acceptance in general depends on where one lives.Of all the religions you listed,the largest in this area, and the ones who have responded have been Christian.My own christianity has been attacked,&though I disagree with the person,I firmly believe that person a right to practice their freedom of speech.If one wants to play on the forum one has to expect these things. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:58 PM:

    " To To Kim Independent continued.
    On an International level Gay marriages are recognized in the following countries:
    Netherlands,Belgium,Spain,Canada, South Africa Norway, & Napal.Denmark permits registered partnerships (synonymous with civil unions)for same sex couples.Gays and lesbians are granted all the same rights as marriage.Sweden has granted civil unions and adoption rights since 1995, making it the third country to grant this right. The Church of Sweden(Lutheran-branch-of-Christianity)was recently allowed to bless the unions of same-sex couples.Iceland legalized civil unions in 1996.In 2006,gay couples were given the same adoption and co-parenting rights as heterosexual couples. The vote was unopposed in Icelandic Parliament. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:37 PM:

    " Your statement concerning civilizations from the past or present as being neither legal or accepted is incorrect.I have given historical examples from the past already,but just to let you know gay marriage is legal in Massachusetts. Vermont, Connecticut, NewJersey & NewHampshire recognize civil unions and offer the same rights as state marriage policies. Maine,Hawaii,the District of Columbia,Washington & Oregon have granted legal unions that offer some of the same rights & responsibilities of marriage under state law. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:31 PM:

    " I believe all religions are entitled to practice their chosen belief(if legal) as they choose.Once they cross the line & try to thrust their religious beliefs into the realms of our national laws, they cross the line concerning the establishment clause.To say however that I am attacking them is incorrect.I am merely trying to point out that the freedom & liberties that we enjoy(including-practicing-our-chosen-faith) today may not be there tomorrow if we deny the few.History is obviously not a strong suit for many on this forum.Marriage predates Judaism,Christianity& all modern religion.Its original purpose dealt with property being passed from lineage-to-lineage. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:10 PM:

    " ToTo Kim Independent,It may in fact be a waste of time trying to convence some christians who take a stance against gay marriage.However,I believe that it is never a waste of time to defend the Constitution.Concerning Christians one point is merely that not all Christians feel the same.One must realize of course they're many different christian denominations.Those range from non-church-goers that read their bibles at home to those who attend services as often as it is offered.Our commonality is Christ, but not all christians are taught the same.Fifty different bible versions not including other languages is proof of that. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 22, 2008 2:39 PM:

    " Jerry Brown, California's Attorney General&former governor has asked California's Supreme Court to overturn Proposition 8.Initially Brown(whose job is to defend state law)said that he would defend the ammendment.Now he has changed his mind &filed his own legal challenge because,he says,the successful proposition deprives people of the right to marry,an aspect of liberty that the Supreme Court has concluded is guaranteed by the California Constitution."Furthermore that,"The framers of the state constitution never intended to put a group's right to enjoy liberty to a popular vote.He-also-stated"Proposition 8 must be invalidated because the amendment process cannot be used to extinguish-fundamental-constitutional-rights-without-compelling-justification."Case-to-be-heard-in-March. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 22, 2008 12:38 PM:

    " To Kim, to divorce and remarry is not an abomination. In the Bible, God divorces himself from Jerusalem. It is prophecy that he will remarry her. The subject here is gay marraige. That is absolutely an abomination. However, it is not for us to judge because no man knoweth whose soul goes "up" or whose soul goes "down" at death. The bible does teach us not to be given in to too many genealogies by tracing this law and that one. You can easily become confused. Every man will stand in judgement of his own fate. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:12 AM:

    " Now, Christians have every right to voice their opinions on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. However, don't come streaming out of the woodwork because of a letter that contains an opinion you don't like, then call the writer and a large population of U.S. citizens "perverts and sinners" who are 2nd class citizens because you don't like the way they live, then get offended when someone argues back. You can't attack and then fall back and take the "victims" position saying "oh why is everyone protesting and attacking us", "oh us poor Christians". Be prepared-to-take-as-much-as-you-give,-or-stay-out-of-the-argument. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 22, 2008 5:08 AM:

    " Christians protested against??? You're kidding right? I wrote a letter about why I thought Prop 8 was wrong, and I gave several valid legal reasons why I thought so. Now, take a look at the comments under my letter (below). So called "Christians" came out of the woodwork to call me and all gays sinners and tell us we were going to he//. Whose protesting who here? When you tell a group of people that you think they are going to he// and that they don't deserve the same rights as you, you-are-going-to-get-a-little-push-back.-BUT-I-believe-the-"protesting-is-obviously-coming-from-the-religious-Christian-right-wing. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 21, 2008 1:36 PM:

    " So Believer, I take it that you think to divorce and remarry is also a abomination? "

    To Reply wrote on Dec 21, 2008 8:53 AM:

    " Why on earth are you arguing with someone on your side dude. We're saying the same thing, just using a different perspective.

    This is one thing I've noticed about the people here is that some of you argue saying the same thing just in a different way. Take your time to think about what you're reading. Saying it different from your words doesn't mean it's wrong. I have an aunt that will make quotes of the same thing a good 20 different ways to say the same thing, I'm respectfully patient with her, with you...? "

    Reply wrote on Dec 20, 2008 3:56 PM:

    " Wrong! The reason that the Christians are the only ones being protested against is because of all of the groups that I listed, the Christians are the only people who it is "politically correct" to protest. If the gays were to protest one of these other groups they would lose what credibility they think they have now. I would love to see them protest a black church in California to see what happens. Blacks voted 80% against gay marriage, protest them! "

    Believer wrote on Dec 20, 2008 12:07 PM:

    " To Kimbro,you are in way too deep. This is a prime example of the feeding of the multitude. The fish is the symbol of a Christian and the loaves of bread symbol of the body of Christ. The fragments that were left represent all of the extras that man incorporate into The Word. We are suppose to edify or build up each other, not judge or tear each other down. I stand firm in that I will stick to God's law as it is written and not on the wisdom of the other fragments. God already granted us individual rights. "

    Reply on Reply wrote on Dec 20, 2008 9:12 AM:

    " The reason Christians get blamed is because they have it written in their book, the Bible, that they are against it, to the point of destroying a twin city full of gays. Kaboom! all the gays are gone. Problem was that the spirit lives on and on and on. People weren't born gay, they were possessed by this spirit. It's a tough one to get rid of even by exorcist. It is possible, I've seen it done, but it's not easy at all. They have to really want to be rid of the lifestyle. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 20, 2008 5:17 AM:

    " Once again Max, I feel I must quote Thomas Paine. I believe he sums up the idea behind which I make this entire argument. "“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself”. "

    To Independent wrote on Dec 19, 2008 6:40 PM:

    " Tell it to the Lord on judgment day. "

    To Kim Independent wrote on Dec 19, 2008 6:35 PM:

    " You are wasting your time trying to convince Christians that Gay marriage should be legal and acceptable. There has not been one civilization, nor religion, nor ethnic race, at any point in time which accepted the legality of same sex marriage. Yet you, as well as the gay community only blame the Christians, why? President-elect Obama does not agree with same sex marriage, blacks, Spaniards, women, all voted against Prop 8, yet you only blame the Christians, why? Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, Buddhists, don't agree with it either. Yet you only blame the Christians, why? "

    Independent wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:58 AM:

    " Rationalizer: I have already covered (several times) the ridiculous resasoning behind the (people will marry animals next) anti-same sex marriage argument. See-the-above-letter. I still ask anyone on here to provide a VALID LEGAL REASON to deny certian consenting adult U.S. citizens certain rights that are enjoyed by other U.S. citizens. These include valid legal reasons that you can take into a court or a legal hearing and present, to justify your reasoning. "Because God says its wrong, because it's a sin, because I think it is morally wrong, or because a majority of people don't agree with it" are not-valid-legal-reasons. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 19, 2008 1:35 AM:

    " The fact of the matter is that our modern democratic principles actually come from a man known as Solon the Athenien.He was a greek poet & statesmen.He was the first man in history to articulate ideas of equal rights for all citizens.He wrote the Solonian Codes in 624 B.C.He wanted to revise or abolish the old Draconiun law, the only laws retained pertained to murder.Solon advocated not only the right but even the duty of every citizen to bear arms in the defense of the state.The Solonian Codes predate Hebrew Law being-collected-and-written(300B.C.)although-I-believe-biblical-orations-were-passed-down-generation-to generation-prior-to-the-written-word. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 19, 2008 1:06 AM:

    " Believer,I beg to differ from your opinion.I am a christian,but I am also an American&know that this country was established with a secular base. (contrary to what many christians believe)Out of curiosity is your view point as a christian that all divorced christians who remarry are condemned for all eternity?(forgive me but I don't) I was taught that God/Jesus was a loving&forgiving God.I am a christian though intellectually I'm aware of similarities of Mithraism & Christianity.Thats where faith comes-in.Was anyone aware that Mithraism is the reason we celebrate the Birth of our savior on December 25? "

    Rationalizer wrote on Dec 18, 2008 11:22 PM:

    " Independent I see you want to tear down the walls of one of the few things that's truly right in the world, so other's with gay tendencies can try to find the same happiness as the married man and woman. Well under your theory we probably shouldn't stop anyone from marrying a farm animal either. They need to be happy also right? I don't think it's going to happen my friend. No legal man on man nor man on farm animal. Just ain't gonna happen. SORRY! "

    Max wrote on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 PM:

    " The majority of americans do not want gay marriage, therefore your in the minority. I never said I spoke for you, would not presume to but the fact remains you are in the minority. I give my self the right because i am a FREE MAN. You will never understand those words from the look of your writings, you look to the government for everything, just because something is a law does not make it right, I do feel sorry for you. I live within the confines but do not let it confine my reason. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 18, 2008 6:10 PM:

    " Furthermore, I am not in the minority, but rather the majority. I am a married heterosexual male with children. I am one of those “others” who you believe wants to be kept “out of it”. Please don’t speak for me. While I am not affected by a ban on same-sex marriage I believe that protecting the rights of everyone is the best way for me to protect my rights, and those of my children’s children. And, if it’s only about a “piece of paper” for gays, maybe it’s only about a piece of paper for-men/women.-In-that-case,-let’s-just do-away-with-marriage-altogether,-otherwise,-why-do-you-get-the-right/privilege-of-marriage,-while-it-is-denied-to-others? What-part-of-the-Constitution-give-YOU-that-specific-right? "

    Independent wrote on Dec 18, 2008 6:09 PM:

    " Max, the position those “few appointed individuals” hold were created by our Founding Fathers, SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of providing checks and balances to the other branches of government AND the majority. That is WHY they are there. The Constitution is the law of the land. If you would rather not live within the confines of the Constitution, you don’t have to, there are plenty of other countries that allow majority to oppress the minority. The Constitution is not a perfect system, but it’s the best one in town I have seen so far. (Continued) "

    Max wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:27 AM:

    " So, You would rather have the consent of a few appointed people rather than the consent or disaproval of the entire nation. You are in the minority, there are other people with beliefs that are in the minority, that fact does not make them right either. I dont need government approval for everything I do, be a rebel you dont need government approval either. Do what you want behind closed doors like the rest of us do, and leave us out of it. If its about a piece of paper, buy some insurance. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 18, 2008 6:34 AM:

    " Max, if we relied on, and gave complete power to a vote of the people, would the Civil Rights Act have been voted into place in Southern states? Would Native Americans have ever been given the legal status of real human beings? It took a court to finally make that decision. As Kim quoted Jefferson, "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect,and to violate would be oppression." "

    Independent wrote on Dec 18, 2008 6:29 AM:

    " Max, there is no logical or bioligical reason for many things we do. It is called love. Two people who love each other. I don't care about what anyones church or personal morals say about it, love is always good. Why should two people in love have to give YOU a logical or biological reason for them wanting to be married anyway? You are allowed to be in love, and marry whom you choose without having to give anyone else a logical or biological reason why, give that right to everyone else. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 18, 2008 6:25 AM:

    " Frank, a vote of the people is not unconstitutional, the law they passed is unconstitutional. If the situation were reversed, and you felt a law allowing same sex marriage was unconstitutional, then by all means I would motivate you to pursue a court judgement. In that way, the court would hopefully affirm the law and state that it is indeed Constitutional, thereby halting any further discussion about whether anyones Constitutional rights were being violated. I am not just in favor of same-sex marriage, but rather justice and equal treatment for EVERYONE. "

    Frank wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:47 PM:

    " Suppose Proposition 8 would have passed allowing homosexuals in California the right to get married and then the opponents would be protesting and complaining using the same arguments that you proponents are using. All of you would be thinking that we were sore losers and whiners, and wasting our time just like we are thinking about all of you now. I'll bet if Prop 8 would have passed you all would be the biggest defenders of the will of the people. But now you all are saying the vote of the people is unconstitutional. America is still-not-ready-try-again-next-time. "

    Max wrote on Dec 17, 2008 6:39 PM:

    " They voted it down in califorina. The people are the law. "

    Max wrote on Dec 17, 2008 6:37 PM:

    " I see religion as a way to control people. I don't go to any church, have not been in over 25 years. So there goes your religion. It's not that, it's 1+1 doe's not =2. Theres no logic in it. theres no biological reason for it. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:51 PM:

    " Rationalizer, you said "when you want to change the world view of what was truly intended between a man and woman in Holy Matrimony then you're off base". "Holy Matrimony" takes place in your church, in your religion. If your church chooses not to recognize same-sex marriage, that's it's right under the 1st Amendment. The separation of church and state ensures that the gov. cannot force your religion to do otherwise. I am not trying to change "Holy Matrimony". HOWEVER, gays, and everyone else for that matter, must be allowed to have-the-same-rights-to-a-legal-MARRIAGE-that-everyone-else-does. Holy-matrimony-in-your-church,-and-a-legal-marriage-recognized-by-the-state-are-two-different-things. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 17, 2008 12:58 PM:

    " Simply put, we are all suppose to respect civil laws. However, you cannot claim to be Christian and expect that the laws man institute concerning morality override those of God. You will either succumb to the wayward moralities of "this world," or run this race called life being equally yoked to Christ. The Constitution gives us individual rights but "God's will" most definitely take over. The bible states that a man who is the least bit unstable is unstable in all his ways. You are either grounded in man's law or God's law. (Circa; prior to Thomas Jefferson). "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:56 AM:

    " The evolution of "Equal rights" in America continues on,as it has done in the past.Some future day the Constitution will once again be ratified to strengthen rights of those with orientations other than that of the majority.
    {This quote is very appropriate for this topic}
    All, too,will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect,and to violate would be oppression.

    Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, March 4,1801 "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:54 AM:

    " Banning Gay Marriage belies our Constitution on the grounds of the 14th Ammendment, which states under Article 1:
    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:54 AM:

    " Thankfully our Constitution was written in such a way that prevents anyones religious beliefs from dictating law.Constitutionally there are no rights granted for anyone to be married, yet currently only heterosexual couples legally can.As part of a married couple I am entitled to federal government tax breaks, and through employment to share the same health insurance there by cutting extra expenses.Who am I as an American to deny another American the same right?Constitutionally speaking, it is far from "Constitutional". "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:53 AM:

    " I find it odd,that many on this forum think marriage has always been between just a man& a woman.If you believe that, you have been living an unrealistic, sheltered life.It has been happening (gay marriage)since the beginning of time.Furthermore, religion has not always embraced marriage ceremonially.This did not begin until the 12th century.Homophobia definitely runs rampant on this website.The reality though is that everyone regardless of their sexual preference is a human being,and should be treated as such.If we were a theocratic "Christian"nation, then all the religious who-are-against-gay-marriage-would-have-standing-Yet we are a Republic, of which we all-are-suppose-to-share-equal-rights. "

    Rationalizer wrote on Dec 16, 2008 11:34 PM:

    " Independent you can paint the picture as you see fit. But when you want to change the world view of what was truly intended between a man and woman in Holy Matrimony then you're off base by trying to be Hubby & Hubby and Hussy & Hussy. Like I said if you want to keep kissin your man behind closed doors that's your business, don't try to make it everyone elses just because you feel like the man in the relationship with a pair. And yes God will speak to us all in the end. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:34 PM:

    " Frank seperation of church & state is no sham.Jefferson wrote the letter, to indicate the purpose of the establishment clause.It is very constitutional as it is in the constitution under the "Establishment" clause.Its existance at the very least is in place to prevent our nation from becoming a theocratic society.(scary)It also protects ones rights to practice religion of choice, or none at all.We are definitely not one Nation under God,indivisible,with liberty and justice for all.Until all of its citizens are allowed to marry who they wish, the government should do away with any tax credit afforded to married people.It-would-be-the-only-fair-and-just-thing-to-do. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:18 PM:

    " To: Rationalizer: Why limit that thinking only to gay couples, lets apply it to everyone. So, anyone who cannot conceive a child, no matter what the reason (medically, physically disabled, too old, etc) are no longer eligible to be legally married. Furthermore, if you get married and don't have a child within 3 years, your marriage is null and void. Heck, if you are a couple who just decides they don't want to have kids, "just live together" after all, according to Rationalizer, you're no good to any of the rest of us. Let all-those-children-who-need-adoption-live-in-orphanages,-If-God-wanted-them-to-have-a-loving-family-He-would-have-had-them-born-to-one. Sound-like-a-"Rational"-plan? "

    lesbian wrote on Dec 15, 2008 6:53 PM:

    " we as us citizens should have the same rights as anyone else in this country. and i want to know how many guys are in here talking about homosexuality being a sin and it's wrong... cause i'm more than sure that you have prayed for a three some to come your way, and i'm sure you thought it was hot when those girls were kissing. well guess what labled a lesbian or not that was a homo act and you enjoyed it. your not going to pay the price for being gay so why are you so worried-about-what-we-do-with-our-lives? "

    Independent wrote on Dec 15, 2008 5:48 PM:

    " To: To Independent: I am not singling out just Christians, but ANY religion that attempts to pass governmental laws based on their religion. If any law is passed specifically based on one religion's particular beliefs, don't you think that is forcing that belief on everyone else? You would-if-it-were-Islamic-Jewish-Hindu-Buddhist-beliefs-being-made-into-law-and-then-the-government-forcing you to obey those laws. You may believe that your "opinion" is the Word of God, but there are a multitude of different religions in this country that may disagree. I will defend to the death your right to worship whatever religion you wish,-and-to-speak-of-your-beliefs,-however YOU MAY NOT turn those-beliefs-into-laws-and-then-force-everyone-else-to-follow-them. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 15, 2008 5:41 PM:

    " To: Independent aka Twister: Please sir/madam, inform me as to what "things" you are referring to that I know nothing of. If you are talking about the Bible and how people pick and choose what they want to enforce (ie: gays vs. eating shellfish) it's right there in black and white. If you think the Bible is the strict word of God, then enforce all of it, not just the parts you choose. Everything else (Constitution, etc) is pure 5th grade civics. I stand-by-everything-I-have-written. However, I appreciate you reading my letter and my posts, thanks for your attention. "

    MikMak Girl wrote on Dec 15, 2008 3:18 PM:

    " Independent: Please continue your effortst to bring common sense into our world. If we stopped trying to make everyone like us, our world would be safer and happier. Any student of history can tell you of the horrendous crimes committed in the name of God and religion. God must be so disappointed with us! "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 15, 2008 1:30 PM:

    " Max, New Iberia has many tolerant gay people.You are not alone by being uncomfortable in showings of lewd public affection.I hate it when heterosexuals are overtly affectionate in public,and have rarely seen this type of public affection by homosexuals in Louisiana.I think people should keep that type of behavior in the privacy of their own home.As far as what one perceives to be natural is quite subjective.It is a very natural for a heterosexual to be with a heterosexual,and quite unnatural to be with homosexual.In addition it is very natural for a homosexual to be with a homosexual-and-very-unatural-to-be-with-a-heterosexual-all-very-subjective-indeed. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 15, 2008 10:56 AM:

    " Max, well, what if in my opinion, or my religion, being left handed is, "just not natural". Maybe we should pass laws to restrict left-handed people from having the same rights as right-handed people. Bottom line is, you can't restrict the rights of U.S. citizens just because you think their life-style is "not natural" or because your religion says it is wrong. "

    To Independent aka Twister wrote on Dec 15, 2008 9:50 AM:

    " I think you need to change your identification from independent to Twister or Speaker of things you know not of. You’re too funny for words. You are gifted with a silver tongue. Some may believe your rhetoric, there are many foolish people in this world and you seem to be their leader. Be careful Twister. You might start to believe your own foolishness. "

    Max wrote on Dec 14, 2008 1:36 PM:

    " Independent. I never said it was a sin. Read more carefully. It's just not natural! "

    To Independent wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:28 AM:

    " I can see that no amount of discussion here will help you. You have accused the Christians of forcing their opinion/belief on others. Not so, the only one trying to force their opinion here is you. As a Christian it's not our opinion, it's the Word of God. You've made your choice here. That's fine but you're twisting and turning the facts to make your point. Some people will fall for the same rhetoric, it's nothing new under the sun. You can’t sway someone who knows the truth. Get over it. "

    Rationalizer wrote on Dec 14, 2008 11:16 AM:

    " There's a simple solution to this debate. The gay couple should be allowed to legally marry if partner A of said couple can naturally conceive and birth a child by partner B. No test-tube babies, artificial birthing methods allowable nor implants. Once this miracle or birth can take place then a true marriage can take place. I know you gays will poo-poo this but isn't that what God truly intended? He didn't make Adam and Adam or you wouldn't be protesting your perverse way of thinking. I say live with your partner and be quite.--You-are-a-minority-and-we-aren't-going-to-change-because-you-want-to-be-Him/Him--or--Her/Her. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 14, 2008 9:58 AM:

    " To: To Lesbian: You're right, in the Bible God says homosexuality is a sin and an abomination. However, if "Lesbian" and all gays will burn in he// for it, I am guessing so will you. You see, in the Bible God also says eating crawfish, shrimp, crabs, bacon, pork chops, ham sandwiches, AND that big ham you're going to have at Christmas dinner is an sin and an abomination. (Leviticus 10:11 and 11:7). You do-believe-that-everything-in-the-Bible-is-the-strict-word-of-God,-don't-you? Therefore-this-must-be-true. So, it looks like you and "Lesbian" are headed in the same direction. I will pray that-the-Lord-changes-your-heart-enough-to-stop-eating these things, and to stop sinning. "

    tater wrote on Dec 14, 2008 8:54 AM:

    " God doesn't want homos to marry-pure & simple. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 13, 2008 9:34 PM:

    " Beliver and Bobby G. every arguement you have thus far made has been covered in the above letter I wrote. You are perfectly free to believe that being gay is a "sin" or that the Bible says it is wrong, if this is part of your religion, great, believe what you want, you still can't base the government's laws on a particular religion's beliefs, period. An argument against legalized same sex marriage based on religion holds no legal water in this country. Bobby G: I already covered the ridiculous argument about "marrying animals" in the above letter, please-read-it. "

    To Lesbian wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:30 PM:

    " You're right the world has changed but the bible says these things would happen. But because the world changes doesn't make homosexuality right. I pray that the Lord would convict your heart enough for you to get out this relatiohship. And you can, people lose children and feel like their life is over but in time God helps them through it. And He will help you too but only if you want Him to. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 13, 2008 4:46 PM:

    " To "lesbian," the elements, principles and morals of the world may have changed. The world itself may change. But, the Word of God will never change. He is the same today, yesterday and forever. No one has the right to judge you.Man's law cannot change what God has defined as marraige. "

    To Lesbian wrote on Dec 13, 2008 2:33 PM:

    " You're right on one point, the world HAS changed since the beginning of time. BUT, God has not. He's the same yesterday--today--&--forever. I want you well warned though that God hates sin and a lesbian relationship is sin and sin will send you straight to he//…God loves you and your counterpart but he hates the sin you're in and he weeps for you. He wants you with Him but you can only serve one god. If not Jehovah, then there's only one other that counts. I pray you find your way now because after death it’s too late. "

    Bobby G wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:59 AM:

    " So when is it going to stop? When someone wants to marry a sheep? or some other farm animal? You can't have babies cross species, But hey! lets let them marry anyway. You are limiting people with physical limitations we have laws against discrimation against the phisically handicapped. Your arguement does not hold water. "

    Bobby G wrote on Dec 13, 2008 11:49 AM:

    " No, you Have it wrong. It's a Tab A fits into Slot B thing. You are talking about infirmaties. I am talking about not working because of a physologiy stand point. "

    lesbian wrote on Dec 13, 2008 12:13 AM:

    " As far as changing the definition of "marriage" if we are allowed to be joined as one how is that at all changing the definition of marriage? And if we were just granted the right to be married how does that lead to people being able to marry animals, i don't care who you are, that is just sick. i have the most beautiful girlfriend that i am commiting the rest of my life to, what is it to, any of you, you if we have a piece of paper that joins us together legally? "

    lesbian wrote on Dec 12, 2008 11:56 PM:

    " i would just like to say that all this crap about "it's not right for gay people to get married because we can't keep the human race going" is a load of CRAP! what about all these children that are waiting to be adopted, or these children that have no parents.The places are running out of room to hold these children. the "straight" population is doing WAY more than it's part of keeping the population alive. I 'm a christian, i love and belive in God. but the world itself has changed SO much since the bible was written. "

    Believer wrote on Dec 12, 2008 9:42 PM:

    " Congress cannot over power the wrath of God. The Pledge says, "One Nation Under God." The USA currency reads, "In God We Trust." Therefore, Congress is being two-faced in proposing gay marraige. He has only ordained marraige between a man and a woman. God will cause a Great Depression, and just like the bible says "every knee shall bow." And, we will definitely know "He is Lord!" "

    Independent wrote on Dec 12, 2008 3:23 PM:

    " No one can use "separation of Church and State" as a means to silence you as a Christian. On the contrary, it directly protects your religious faith. Without Separation of Church and state, the government could pass a law stating that the official religion of the U.S. was, for example, Islam. And while it would allow you to practice other religions, the rules and beliefs of the Islamic religion would be codified into the laws of the country, and you would be required to follow them. Do you want to live in a country without the Separation-of-Church-and-State? "

    Independent wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:32 PM:

    " To Bobby G.: The issue of marriage for procreation comes up a lot in the gay marriage discussion. I assume then that anyone who can't pro-create also shouldn't be allowed to marry. So, paralized patients, people who are medically sterile, people who choose not to have kids, older people beyond the childbearing age, all would also fall under your "pro-create or you're banned from marriage" stance. Lets go farther, lets pass a law that says if you don't have kids within 3 years of your marriage, your marriage is null and void. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:29 PM:

    " To: To Frank: Thats great, but turn the tables. Suppose a group of people (majority) vote and pass a law saying that you are no longer allowed to make the sign of the cross or go to a Christian church, you must now go only to a Jewish Synagogue simply because seeing you attend a Christian Church "makes their stomach turn". BUT, they tell you that you can still be a Christian, they just don't want to see you practicing any of those "disgusting" Christian rituals. "

    Frank wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:17 PM:

    " people start throwing around the term "separation of Church and State" as a means to silence me as a Christian. I have not lost my first amendment right as of yet. It seems as though you are promoting immorality to come out of the closet while shoving me into the closet. This planet is more than big enough for all of us to coexist on. However giving one person rights while taking away another is not coexisting. "

    Frank wrote on Dec 12, 2008 1:10 PM:

    " Independent, I don't know how much simpler I can explain this to you. Separation of Church and State is unconstitutional. You said so yourself in an earlier post. The phrase was used by Jefferson in a letter, not in the Constitution. I am not appalled nor opposed to Gay people, my personal belief is that homosexuality is wrong, but who am I to judge or condemn them. However, I can and do disagree with them on a number of issues, such as re-defining marriage. What does upset me is when CONTINUED "

    Independent wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:37 AM:

    " A government sponsored official or employee is different. They can’t use the government to push their religion on others. As for all the entertainment venues you don’t like because of the sex and offensive words, that’s your choice to buy them or listen to them. Would you rather the government start banning what people (like you) can say publicly or the music they can sing or listen to? Perhaps we should start burning books next. This is all very basic 5th grade civics here Frank. I don’t know how simpler I can explain it all. If-you-still-don’t-understand-then-I’m-sorry-for-you.If-you-just-don’t-agree-that’s-your-right-as-well-to-disagree. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:37 AM:

    " Frank, I don’t know how simpler I can explain the concepts of freedom of religion and sep. of church and state. It’s difficult to say sep. of church and state is unconstitutional when it’s IN the Constitution. Sep. of church and state doesn’t effect your voting, you can vote anyway you want. However, not every law that is passed by your vote can be sustained under the Constitution. Preacher don’t fall under the sep. of church and state because they are not representing the government. They can say anything they want from the pulpit. Including-your-preacher. (continued) "

    Bobby G wrote on Dec 11, 2008 7:24 PM:

    " Homosexuality serves no function. One can not procreate with another of the same sex in the human species. "

    To Frank wrote on Dec 11, 2008 6:02 PM:

    " Good for you Frank. They want rights and I think we as Christians deserve rights too. I don't force anyone to pray or go to church so don't make my stomach turn watching two gays making intimate contact with each other especially in front of children. "

    Frank wrote on Dec 11, 2008 5:12 PM:

    " While we are discussing "forcing things on people." Why is it that the immoral community FORCES their immorality upon me and my family? I cannot go to, or rent a movie anymore that does not have an openly gay character in it. Why can't I turn on the radio with out hearing music which has sexual overtones in it? Why is it that every show has cursing in it. These are all commonplace in today's culture but yet people like you, Independent, tell us Christians that we are the odd balls and kooks, and-that-we-have-no-business-getting-involved-in-our-Government.-Stop-imposing-your-immorality-on-me! "

    Frank wrote on Dec 11, 2008 5:01 PM:

    " Voting should not fall under Separation of Church and State, (which is unconstitutional and a sham anyway). Because I hold a certain opinion and vote accordingly is not forcing anything on anybody. Christians still have the right to vote!! You are crying Separation because your side lost an election!

    Why doesn't anybody cry out about this so called separation of church and state when black preachers are spouting political messages from their pulpits? Why isn't the gay community protesting the black churches? They voted 80% against gay marriage. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:20 AM:

    " It comes down to this: You have EVERY right to believe that homosexuality is wrong, based on your chosen religion. (Freedom of Religion). You DO NOT have the right to force that belief on others by passing governmental laws based on your particular chosen religion.(Sep. of Church and State). By the way, I am not Kimbro aka Kim, although I have often agreed with what she says here, and I applaud her effort. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:14 AM:

    " Also, you believe that homosexuality is wrong based on what the Bible says? Well, the Bible also says that eating shellfish (shrimp) is an abomination (Leviticus 10:11), it also says you may sell your daughter into slavery (Exodus 21:7), or if a woman is not a virgin when she gets married you may stone her to death (Deuteronomy 22:23-24), it also forbids a common divorce like many Christians get today(Matthew5:32). If you believe in, and want to enforce one passage of the Bible, you must also believe in and enforce all the rest of these. Don’t-you-believe-that-the-Bible-is-the-strict-word-of God? "

    Independent wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:13 AM:

    " After all, if you want our laws to be based on the Bible, most of the Bible is Jewish. The 10 Commandments are Jewish. The Bible clearly says that the Jewish people are God’s “chosen” people. Therefore, shouldn’t our country base it’s laws on the Jewish faith? Furthermore, you have every right to stand on your firm “knowing’ of what the Bible says, that is your religious freedom at work. However, you cannot take your religion, no matter how strongly you believe in it, and force it on everyone else in this country in the form of laws. (Continued) "

    Independent wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:13 AM:

    " To: To Independent: There is no misunderstanding. You can’t keep government out of religion WITHOUT keeping religion out of government. Once you allow the beliefs,rules,regulations of one religion to begin to influence the government you no longer have freedom of religion. When the government begins to be influenced by “one” religion, and therefore passes laws based on that “one” religion, all of the other religions in this country have LOST their freedom of religion. Would you like the government to begin passing laws based on the Jewish or Muslim religion, then force you to obey those laws? (Continued) "

    To Independent wrote on Dec 6, 2008 6:11 PM:

    " Your first miss understanding is that the separation of church and state was 'not' to keep the church out of government but government out of church. Your statements make my point. Then second, we, the right wingers, are not freaking out but standing on a firm--not belief--a firm knowing that the Bible, God, and all that entails, CONDEMNS same sex relations of any kind be they married or not, remember Sodom and Gomorrah. God says to love what he loves and hate what he hates. He hates sin, same sex relations equals sin…period. "

    Curious wrote on Dec 6, 2008 2:40 PM:

    " Have you become "Independant " Kim? "

    Willie wrote on Dec 5, 2008 11:15 AM:

    " All that needs to be done is , grant gays the right to civil unions. That way, they will enjoy all the same legal protections as other couples. Take out the phrase"Marriage" , and the fanatic right wing religious freaks will stop freaking out. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:24 PM:

    " What the 14th Amendment means is that while there is no law specifically protecting anyone’s “right” to marry, if a state gives YOU the right or privilege to marry the person of YOUR choosing, it cannot deny that same right or privilege to others. This is especially true of that denial of a right or privilege is based on the beliefs of one particular religion like Christianity (violation of separation of church and state- See comments to Frank below). The court in California did not determine that gays had a “right to marriage”, but-rather-it-determined-that-they-had-the-right/privilege-to-the-same rights/privileges afforded everyone else. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:22 PM:

    " To: Whatright? You are right, the right to marry is not mentioned specifically in the Constitution. So, I ask, where is the right for men and women specifically protected in the Constitution? The Constitution also does not specifically protect the right to drive, to own a dog, or to eat pizza on Tuesdays. However, it does provide a provision to protect all citizens of the US from unequal treatment. The 14th Amendment states “No-State-shall make-or-enforce-any law-which shall-abridge-the-privileges-or-immunities-of-citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law (Continued) "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:08 PM:

    " You see Frank, Separation of church and state was specifically created to PROTECT your freedom of religion. If there were no separation of church and state, what would stop any certain religion from becoming supported by the government, and the government then basing it’s laws on that one religion’s beliefs, THEN forcing you to obey those laws? You can worship as you wish, but you can’t force your religious beliefs on others by basing the laws of the land on your particular religion’s beliefs. Same-sex-marriage-does-not-force-anything-on-you. If-you-don’t-agree-with-same sex marriage you have every right to NOT marry a gay man. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:07 PM:

    " Furthermore, George Mason, the Father of the Bill of Rights said “All Men have an equal natural and unalienable Right to the free Exercise of Religion, according to the Dictates of Conscience, and that no particular religious Sect or Society ought to be favored or established by Law in preference to another”. James Madison also stated, “Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those-of-another."(Continued) "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:06 PM:

    " Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase “separation of church and state”. A Baptist Association once wrote to President Jefferson regarding a "rumor that a particular denomination was soon to be recognized as the national denomination." Jefferson responded to calm their fears by assuring them that the federal government would not establish any single denomination of Christianity as the National denomination. He wrote: "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State." (Continued) "

    Independent wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:05 PM:

    " Frank: You didn’t look far enough, the 1st Amendment states “(Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion), or (prohibiting the free exercise thereof)” These are two separate things mentioned here. You’re confusing freedom of religion and sep. of church and state. Freedom-of-religion allows anyone to worship as they please. Separation-of-church and state was established by the Founding Fathers in order to keep any one religion from being established by, recognized by, supported by, or controlling the government. The separation of church and state directly protects your freedom of religion. You-can’t-have-religious-freedom-without-seperation-of-church-and-state. (Continued) "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 4, 2008 6:05 PM:

    " Frank,the wall of seperation is better known as the "Establishment Clause" which is located In the Constitution under the 1st Ammendment where it states:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,or of the press;or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Tolerance is not when someone agrees with you.It's having the ability of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.One doesn't have to agree or practice with them.One only has to tolerate to-be-tolerant. "

    what rights wrote on Dec 4, 2008 6:17 AM:

    " The is no right to gays being married. If I say marriage is between a man and woman as it has been since time began how is that "hate". By gays demanding that society change the definition on marriage they are in effect forcing their religion on all the people. Remember it was the court in Calf. that determined this "right" not the Constitution.Again marriage is a social right not Constitutional, so not being able to marry is not against anyones right. "

    Frank wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:55 PM:

    " CONTINUED: Why is it that toleration is defined only when somebody agrees with you? California had a chance to vote on this issue. They spoke clearly that they are accepting of the gay lifestyle but not ready to redefine the institution of marriage. America is still not as far to the left as everybody thought She was. I also am quite certain that if the Abortion issue were ever brought to a vote that it would fail also.
    Lastly, I will conclude this long rambling by encouraging all of you to read "Lord save us from your followers" by Dan-Merchant-it-is-very-enlightening "

    Frank wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:47 PM:

    " CONTINUED: Why is it that nobody is protesting against these groups? Could it be because the gay community would lose what little credibility it thinks it has among the people? Why is it open season only on the Christian community? I don't hate gay people, Christ instructs me to love those who hate me. If I love only those who love me, what good is that? We can go to ball games together, shoot some golf, have a beer, etc... However, I can disagree with you and still be friendly! CONTINUED "

    Frank wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:39 PM:

    " To "Thank You"
    Actually yes, I have heard of "Separation of Church and State" however, I can't seem to find it anywhere in our Constitution. Tell me, which article is it in? Which Amendment is it which limits our ability as American citizens to practice our faith? While we're at it, why do we not hear anything about Separation of Church and State when Father Phlager, and Reverend Wright are putting out political speeches from the pulpit? Also, there was a large amount of women as well as the black community who voted against allowing Gay Marriage. CONTINUED "

    Max wrote on Dec 3, 2008 6:24 PM:

    " I really don't care what anybody does behind closed doors, as long as it is consentual and with people of age. What scares the heck out of me is the lack of tolerence of the gays toward the people who oppose their position. I've seen this on the news stations, and read it in news magazines. They want tolerence, but won't give any. Does not look good for their arguement. "

    We all judge continued wrote on Dec 3, 2008 4:24 PM:

    " NO RIGHT TO JUDGE! I beg to differ on that one, I will judge a person based on how they choose to live their life so I’ll know if I want that to be a part of my life or not...People who say we don’t have the right to judge are hypocrites and the bible doesn’t come against this type of judgment, God expects it of us...There are many types of judgments of 2 categories, the right kind and the wrong kind...Stop trying to be the ‘Holier than thou’ and be honest with yourself...We all-judge-based-on-what-we-see-and-hear... "

    We all judge wrote on Dec 3, 2008 4:21 PM:

    " People make judgments everyday about people, including yourself. You judge if you like someone, you judge whether you’d spend time with them or not based on what you see and hear and some even by what someone has told them before they even had the chance to judge their character first hand. I will judge by various means, the character of the boy that want’s to take my daughter to the movies. I will judge the people she hangs out with and let her know if I do or don’t approve...continued "

    Darrell Brookes wrote on Dec 3, 2008 2:33 PM:

    " Society seems to need a scapegoat for its survival. Blacks, women, gays, immigrants, the list can go on and on and on. The saddest part of it all is that the one place which is suppose to offer comfort and peace of mind, leads the pack...the Church. While Christ hung on the cross, did he see color, or gender, or sexual orientation? He simply wanted the suffering to end. Here we are prolonging others' suffering. Stop the hate! "

    Deborah C. White wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:13 AM:

    " Kimbro.....thank you for your response. I truely enjoyed your post without the copy and paste job but I do understand what you are saying. It was a pleasure to read. I must say, I enjoyed what you posted. I felt like I heard from you not a book. Good day and thanks again. "

    Deborah C. White wrote on Dec 3, 2008 8:09 AM:

    " As for myself, I have been reading the gay threads quietly. I see there is much debate on this subject. There are always people who will believe in what they wish to believe in and that is their choice and their right. Is it right or wrong? I will leave that decision to our maker. I do feel that all are created equal and what a person does is not our right to judge how a person chooses to live their life. Therefore, I will continue to read. That's my comment/opinion. "

    Mike wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:58 PM:

    " Marriage is a privilege not a right. Just like driving if you don't have a license, you don't have a right~ "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 2, 2008 6:21 PM:

    " Alex,I admit to pasting quotes, and notes on history,including statistical data.Most of what I write however is that of my own.Concering this forum the bottom line is this...we as Americans should fight to protect our Constitution.To deny citizens who are of age, a basic human right(Ammendment IX)of being able to marry a person of his/her choosing is a slippery slope indeed.This is especially true if the only reason for denial is a religious one.My beliefs are supported by my previous quotes,including that of the definition of marriage&when religion came into play.History found in the book "Marriage, A History"by Stephanie Coontz "

    Alex wrote on Dec 2, 2008 3:40 PM:

    " Independent,
    Sorry, but I was not referring to your post. Not at all in fact. I have and you probably have seen all the post by Kimbro...aka kim on this forum. This is who I was referring to. This person appears to be smart with all the researching they do but it is always a copy and paste job. Would be nice to see some of their own words and thoughts for a change. "

    Joe wrote on Dec 2, 2008 1:01 PM:

    " With due respect, the key word in all of the article is "MARRIAGE" this is what many of you choose to overlook. They, (gays) want to change the definition of marriage. I could care less if anyone of these (gays) want to live with a cow or horse. Marriage is and always will be between a man and a woman, no matter what religion you believe in. If people want to live together, I don't think you will see much of an argument. Live together and leave marriage to those who choose to believe in that union!! "

    Independent wrote on Dec 2, 2008 11:51 AM:

    " Pardon me Alex, but if you are referring to my above letter, everything included is my words. Except for a few sentences, mostly those enclosed in quotations, these are my thoughts.
    To: Mr No Mo, please provide a direct quote from the Constitution that specifically gives heterosexuals the right to marry. You won't find one, therefore why do you have the legal right to marry who you choose? "

    No Mo Homos wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:50 AM:

    " Sorry but it is not a constitutional right for two queers to marry it is not depriving the minority of anything. A marriage can only be of a man and a woman. You do have the right to do what you want with any other human and we have the right to not recognize it as a marriage . I also have the right to think all gays are sick people that only god will be able to cure when they meet him. "

    Independent wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:49 AM:

    " To: "To Thank You": You are right, you absolutely have the right to freedom of religion and the right to serve and practice whatever faith you choose. No one is questioning or threatening that. However, you DO NOT have the right to force the beliefs/rules of your chosen religion on everyone else in the form of governmental laws. "

    Alex wrote on Dec 2, 2008 9:44 AM:

    " The copy and paste queen is back. I would love to read something of this persons own words and thoughts. It is so easy to copy and paste the thoughts of someone else. So much printed on this forum taken from other sources and if they have the smarts to do that I would be willing to believe they have thoughts of their own that can be submitted. This forum is filled with copy and past items from this individual. Anyone can search these items. Can you get original, please? "

    Thank You wrote on Dec 2, 2008 5:58 AM:

    " Actually,yes, I DO feel as though many Christians try to use God as a crutch for hatred. I'm tired of seeing the words "God says it's wrong, therefore, I will never be tolerant of gays" - Go to the other thread and just read the hatred that is spewing from "christians"....I am a Catholic,born and raised, but intolerable hatred from some on this board makes me cringe. Our God is loving, he created all things good.
    Separation of church and state - ever heard of that? Religion should have no bearing on the laws of our land. "

    To Thank You wrote on Dec 1, 2008 9:44 PM:

    " the voters of California simply voted, and yet you feel as though this is "forcing" something on you? Quit relying on that crutch. Christians and every other belief has the right to serve and practice their faith in America. It is what brought our fore fathers here in the first place. We still have freedom of religion, that has not been stripped of us yet. "

    Kimbro aka Kim wrote on Dec 1, 2008 8:26 PM:

    " Independent, as usual your writtings are exactly on target.

    Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry
    ~Thomas Jefferson

    If by the mere force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify revolution.
    ~Abraham Lincoln

    Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of the people choose that they be.
    ~Supreme Court of the United States "

    Independent wrote on Dec 1, 2008 4:52 PM:

    " To: Just Say No: I am a hetrosexual male, married to a wonderful wife with two children. I simply believe that the best way to protect freedom for myself and my children is to protect the freedom of EVERYONE. It is the absolute least we can do to honor those who died to give us that freedom. "

    Passer By wrote on Dec 1, 2008 3:43 PM:

    " Many break the Bible's food and health laws and wonder why they get sick. They also break God's laws on sexuality with being gay, incest, unatural acts with animals, pedophilia, etc. We are not suppose to judge each other, lest we be judged. Let each man save his own soul as he will have to stand alone in judgement whether Prop 8 passes or not. We are not to pull the splinter out of someone else's eye when there is a log in our own. "

    To Just say No wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:24 PM:

    " I am not a Rainbow Warrior, but totally agree with whomever wrote this article. Everyone is different in their own way, that is what makes this world so interesting. "

    aint buying it... wrote on Dec 1, 2008 2:14 PM:

    " Nope not buying any of it.... the body be it human or other animal was made a certain way. It is made to fit together with the body of the opposite sex for the sole purpose of procreating to keep the species alive. Humans are among the very few animals in the kingdom that have "sex" for the fun of it as well as for creating offspring.Humans are not the only ones that mate for "life" although we could take lessons from other animals in that department, but same sex coupling is just against all laws, physics, Gods, and mans! "

    Just Say No wrote on Dec 1, 2008 11:24 AM:

    " I guess you are a rainbow warrior too. "

    Thank You wrote on Dec 1, 2008 10:53 AM:

    " Thank you for the most educated, logical, and unbiased forum article on this topic I've ever seen on this site.

    Too many try to force THEIR God and THEIR religions on others. I believe in God, but MY God would never discriminate against those who are different from me.

    I think the bottom line is that people are afraid of gay people - like "the gay" will contaminate them somehow, which is ridiculous, of course.

    Live and let live. You have your own souls to worry about.... "

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